Embracing Neurodiversity in the Legal Practice: Thriving as a Neurodivergent Lawyer [Panel Discussion]

AMY LEVINE: 

Okay, I think we’ll get started. So, first, I wanted to welcome everybody to our panel discussion on Embracing Neurodiversity in the Legal Practice: Thriving as a Neurodivergent Lawyer. My name is Amy Levine. I’m the Director of Programs and Volunteers here at LCL. And I will be the moderator of this discussion. And in case you’re joining LCL’s programming for the first time, we offer confidential and free one-on-one consultations with our clinical staff on substance use disorders, mental health challenges and support groups. Additionally, we offer one-on-one consultations on law office practice management, and of course, educational programming like this.

And I wanted to start by welcoming our speakers and panelists and I’m going to introduce them. We are lucky to have LCL’s very own Dr. Shawn Healy. He is a clinical psychologist and runs our ADHD support group. Additionally, we have Tierra Jenkins, who is a senior labor and employee specialist at UMass Memorial Center. She is an attorney with ADHD. Also joining us today is Salomon Rabinovich, and he is an immigration attorney and organizational DEI consultant. He has dyslexia and ADHD. James Jones, who owns his own firm named Elevate Law. He’s an autistic lawyer. And finally, but certainly not least, Christine Sunnerberg is the Founder Partner at Ramirez and Sunnerberg. And she too, is an autistic lawyer. I would encourage everybody to read their full bio on the website. 

And we’re also going to answer your questions at the end of the at the end of the panel discussion. And I also wanted to point out that we do have some resources in the chat. Those were put in there by our panelists. So, take a look at those definitely some interesting and educational reading. And I wanted to start off by first asking Dr. Healy, Shawn, if you could define and tell us, what does it mean to be neurodivergent, and then also maybe tell us about the different neurodivergencies and what some of the signs are? 

 

SHAWN HEALY: 

Well, thank you for having me, Amy. And thank you to all my fellow panelists for being a part of this. So, to that question, like, what is neurodiversity? The basic way that I explain that is, when we think about how our brains work, how our brains function, we have both a lot of commonality, and also a lot of differences. And so there are certain commonalities that we would expect from sort of typical functioning brains in terms of like a normal distribution with like variation, you know, above and below the mean. And when there is significant differences, we start to see that as a separate group. And so, neurodiversity just means that our brains are functioning significantly different in some way than what is expected. This can range and mean a whole host of things. Whenever there are particular behaviors or experiences that multiple people start to have, we start to describe it as a group or category. And that’s where like a diagnosis comes from or a category of neurodiversity.

The issue, one of the issues, is that that description of some difference often has negative connotations, when it is motivated by a disruption to a system that’s already in place. So, like, when you think about the traditional school system in United States, you know, kids sit in rows facing forward, and they’re expected to be quiet and listen and pay attention, right. And so, in that system, when someone disrupts that system in terms of like, ‘This is not how I operate,’ suddenly, that becomes an issue. And then, you know, attention is paid to that. Whereas a neurodiverse issue where, let’s say a kid has a photographic memory, it’s like, well, that’s significantly different than you’d expect. But it’s not disrupting the system. Therefore, it’s not sort of described in the same way.

But basically, all we’re talking about with neurodiversity is a difference in how our brains function.  And so, in certain settings, in certain professions, there’s going to be sort of a barrier or a difficulty based on the system or the expectations of that profession or setting and someone’s ability to sort of navigate that. And so, examples would be like ADHD, dyslexia, autism, dysgraphia. There’s lots of examples of that difference. And again, we often don’t talk about the ones that we think will be beneficial, like a photographic memory, we just focus on something that, ‘Oh, there’s some disruption, that’s causing some tension,’ and therefore, more attention is paid towards resolving it.

So unfortunately, when we think of neurodiversity, in terms of people’s native experiences of being categorized in that way, we can often overlook that those differences, while they might present challenges in some systems, they also present advantages. And so one of the things that I’m often doing is encouraging people to think about their neurodiversity in terms of the advantages, not just where there are barriers, because every neurodiversity category has advantages, that if you are aware of them, and you can utilize them, you can really benefit from how you operate, how your brain works, in the setting that you’re in. 

 

AMY:   

Excellent. And that actually, I was going to ask this a little bit later on, but I think that’s a good segue and jumping off point where, although not formally diagnosed, I believe that I do have ADHD. And so I’ve seen colleagues and friends be able to do certain tasks easily where I couldn’t, but I also bring, I think, other really unique strengths to the table. So again, as I mentioned, I think that’s a great jumping off point, I’d love our panelists to talk about the various strengths that you do bring to the table. Christine, you’re actually at the top of my screen, so why don’t we start with you? 

 

CHRISTINE SUNNERBERG: 

Sure. Hi, everyone. I’m Christine. As was mentioned, I’m autistic. And I love autism and autistic people, so I’m going to try to contain my enthusiasm and stay within my assigned time here, so bear with me. But personally, you know, I think there are a lot of traits of autistic people. And you know, I should say, I’m just one autistic person, everybody is different. So, there’s a range of traits that tend to be associated with us, some of us maybe have more of them, or less of them or something of that nature.  But myself, you know, I’m fortunate to be a very organized, detail-oriented person. And so working in the law is actually like a really good place for me, a place where, you know, our clients expect that we are down in the details, that we are, you know, as aware of everything in their case as we can possibly be. And I find for myself, that that’s not really a problem.   

You know, in addition, I find that as an autistic person, and maybe there’s neurodivergent folks here who relate to this, one of the big emotions I have is justice. And one of the things that’s talked about a lot in our community is how we tend to have emotions and experience them a little bit different. I think for our community, a lot of us will tell you justice is a feeling and so when I do my job, you know, I feel as though I am in the place getting to do what I want to be doing, which is addressing injustice is that exist. And having a platform to do that and also having a way that that suits my skill set to do that. I love to research I love to write, all of those things are exactly what you get to do as a lawyer.  So, I guess for me, all of those things, I think I was fortunate in some ways to kind of find this field that that fits so many of my skill sets. But I’m definitely a person that thinks, you know, there are a number of autistic people that have these similar traits. And they are, in some ways ideal for the legal fields.  

 

AMY:  

That’s excellent. Really. That’s great. Tierra, do you want to share as well? 

 

TIERRA JENKINS:  

Sure. I’m Tierra Jenkins. I’m excited to be here today. And thanks, everyone, for joining. So, some of the strengths, I would say, I have ADHD, I was diagnosed as an adult, it’s been about 10 years since my diagnosis. And I’ve noticed that I tend to go down the rabbit hole. If I’m researching, I, there’s oftentimes there, there isn’t a backstop. But that backstop has also led me to discovering things that my colleagues were not able to discover. It gives me a different perspective to certain cases.   

I oftentimes have to, well, I used to, try to limit myself. I would look at my colleagues. And I’d say, ‘Okay, well, they did this brief in X amount of time, I needed to do it a little longer.’ And it’s because I was trying to be as thorough as possible. But in being thorough, there were so many more things that I was discovering, and it allowed me to do my job so much better. So, rather than seeing this as something that inhibits me, or rather than looking at it, like, ‘Oh man, I wish I could do this as quickly or as succinctly as someone else,’ I was, I have the ability to see all of the pieces. And I may struggle a little bit to line up those pieces. But once I have them in place, it has definitely played to my advantage. So, I’d like to shift my perspective a little bit and kind of play to that strength. And I do appreciate that about myself.  

 

AMY:   

Excellent. Excellent. It’s good to hear. So, I appreciate that. James, do you want to share? 

 

JAMES T. JONES: 

Yeah, of course. My name is James Jones, and I am autistic. And I will say that one of the things that for my version of autism, because it’s different for everyone, even though we may share some similarities. For me, it’s very much, I guess, a couple of things, the logical thinking, which of course, is very helpful in the law, for many different reasons of being able to just sort of step back away from maybe an emotional response to things just sort of think through things logically, almost like from a, you know, like a 30,000 feet look. And then the other thing that I think is an advantage, at least for the way my mind works, is that I’m able to, I guess maybe this is similar to the logic thing, or related to it, I’m kind of able to see a lot of different scenarios all at once and sort of think through how they will play out really fast. Which makes it beneficial, many times being able to just sort of say, you know, someone comes to me with a problem. And I can say, ‘Well, here are your options, but I’ve kind of already thought through and these are the reasons why these options will probably not work and these options probably will.’ Without having to sort of go down and work through all the details of it and talk through it all I kind of just sort of see it in my mind, and then just sort of rule out a number of things. And I’m you know, I’m able to just sort of say yeah, this is probably, you know, you have in reality these two choices, even though I’m saying that you have like five because the truth is these three are not going to work out and I can explain to you why if you want to know, so. 

 

AMY:   

Excellent. Definitely, again, unique and different, different scenarios and stories. Salomon, would you like to share?  

 

SALOMON CHIQUIAR-RABINOVICH: 

Yes. I’m Salomon Chiquiar-Rabinovich and I was always very proud, I’m from Mexico, I’m Hispanic, I’m Jewish. But being dyslexic was something that I think until today, it’s quite painful because it’s associated early on with the difficulty in decoding language. Dyslexic, dyslexics are, and I will go into the strengths, but the difficulty is in how your brain is able to keep in its memory. Starting from when you have to develop some fluency in reading, it’s just the decoding, you know, it’s unconscious you just are able to, once you master the alphabetical lines, but that from third or fourth grade, that’s where you can see a difficulty in someone just not being able to recall the essentials that you have to automized in reading. Its effects, in the practice of law, we’ll go into later, are very noticeable.  Now, the strengths of dyslexics has been, especially now, very, very specifically documented what the strengths are. Because you have the difficulty in decoding language, reading, then if you if you progress and you have the allyship and the support system that you need to get through, you have an unconventional way of deriving your learning, your understandings.  

For example, in law school, I went from ’85 to ’89, at Georgetown with a complex program, because it was a joint admissal. To read case books in those days when there were no audio materials, I started reading dissents, because the dissenting opinion couldn’t go into so much detail. So, from the dissent, then I would go back and see the broader picture of the of the cases. That’s how I really survived. But it has its limitations, particularly, for example, the difference between constitutional law and the Uniform Commercial Code.  So, people with dyslexia are not going to be the ones who can fill out a form correctly. You trip, you need the assistance of somebody, but you’re able to see the broad picture, and in many cases, argue, very novel aspects that benefit your client. 

 

AMY:   

Excellent. And, you know, it was interesting, because you had to figure out what was, what made things work for you. So, I appreciate hearing that. We have definitely people in the audience that are wondering if they are neurodivergent. And so I want to ask the panelists, can you share a little bit about your story, in terms of some signs that made you say, ‘Hey, maybe I am thinking a little bit differently than my friend that’s sitting next to me.’  James, do you want to start us off with that, when you when you noticed it? 

 

JAMES:  

Yeah, sure. So, I guess mine is a little bit maybe strange story, because it wasn’t until I was around 30, that I realized something maybe was different, not quite right, so to speak. You know, because most people don’t talk about their brains, how they work, how they think these aren’t conversations that you have as kids or teenagers or any, you just talk about other stuff. So I just always assumed that the way my brain functioned, the way I thought of things, the way that I categorized things, that that was just the way everyone did and never thought anything of it. And I was in a grad school class. And it was a class for young adult literature. And it was the book Perks of Being a Wallflower. And everyone in the class was talking about some of the things that the main character was saying and doing and they were like, ‘Oh, yeah, he’s clearly autistic,’ and like, ‘Oh, this is autism,’ etcetera, etcetera. And like, ‘Yeah, this is the way he thinks the way he says things.’

And it was weird, because for me when I was reading through that book for the class, that was the first time I saw someone reflected in any sort of media, that it was like, ‘Oh, this makes sense. This, finally, a character that thinks normally, that acts normally.’ Because I was identifying with them, like, ‘Yeah, that’s fine. We, like, that’s how our brain is supposed to work.’ And I’m like, ‘Wait a minute. So, is this what autism is supposed to look like?’ And then I was curious, and I went and got diagnosed. And there you go. And I got my diagnosis when I was either 30 or 31 or so. So, yeah, a little weird, little roundabout, but it was through a book that I was reading in a class that I was taking. 

 

AMY:   

Well, that I think that is great. And again, hopefully this discussion will help people recognize some things. What about Salomon, do you want to talk about when you first noticed? 

 

SALOMON:   

Well, it was noticed by the school, I went to a Jewish day school in Mexico City where we were expected, going from third, fourth grade to have fluency in reading, especially reading aloud in both Spanish, Hebrew, and Yiddish. And I could speak the languages perfectly and actually the teachers would say, ‘Wow, you have a very sophisticated way for your age to be explaining things.’ But I, I had difficulty reading so they, they determined that I was slowing down the, the class, and there was no knowledge about learning disabilities. But fortunately, we took our self on, they duplicated why or what I was supposed to learn. And then at age 14, finally, but not in Mexico, I had to come for a summer of intensive where, they call developmental vision training. So, until age 14, the label of dyslexia wasn’t attached and yeah, just was very strange that, they would say, ‘Well, he’s intelligent, but he cannot read.’ 

 

AMY:  

Now, I think you also had mentioned that you have ADHD, was – 

 

SALOMON:   

That was in my 30s, where, where a neurologist told me, you know, in a non-visible disabilities, you can have many of them, because we’re all individuals, like Shawn said, you know, brains are not machines. So, there isn’t like a typical brain, but they’re all different, like our faces. So, that’s when they determined because with ADHD contrary to dyslexia, medications do help. And there are, there are prescribed in its genetic, but it’s something dyslexia is also a genetic way in which processing symbols is not is not something that you can spell, you can retain, the way that it’s expected from others, but it’s my life activities, like somebody who was in a wheelchair, you don’t tell them, ‘I’m sorry, this school or this law firm has done everything for you. But you have a bad attitude. Why don’t you just walk like everybody else?’ You wouldn’t say that. But with people with any of our disabilities, then they would take it as a fault of character. And that’s the problem that’s probably shared. 

 

AMY: 

Okay, thank you. So, Tierra, when did you first notice or suspect that you might have ADHD? 

 

TIERRA: 

So, I was in law school. It was about 10 years ago, I had taken some time off in between undergrad and law schools about three, maybe four years. I struggled my first year of law school, and I remember speaking with advisors, professors, and one of my advisors had said to me – well, I was explaining to her some of the difficulties I was having, remembering information, categorizing information, keeping up with deadlines, prioritizing, and she said to me, ‘Do you think you have a learning disability?’ And I said, ‘No, I don’t.’ I didn’t have any troubles prior to that. I was in mainstream classes for you know, elementary, middle school, I didn’t have a huge problem in undergrad. So, it was, it was odd for me to hear that. And of course, like most people who are unfamiliar with it, you have a perception of what learning disability looks like. And to me, I didn’t look like someone that had a learning disability. But she suggested that I find a therapist and get a neuropsych assessment, which I did. And lo and behold, I have ADHD Inattentive Type.  

The funny part is, during my, I applied for accommodations for the bar exam, and because I did not have diagnosis as a child, and I didn’t have an IEP to show I had to collect information from my previous schools to kind of show a pattern. And when they say 2020 is hindsight, it makes absolute sense. I looked through reviews from elementary school teachers and high school teachers, and almost every one of them says, Tierra is a great student. She’s a smart student. She daydreams too much, she needs to focus. I was constantly being reprimanded for looking out the window for biting my nails, things that I still do now. So, it was there the whole time. But when you’re growing up in the 90s, and you know, special education isn’t as robust as it is now, people don’t notice certain things. So, I feel like up until I became an adult where life got a little bit more difficult and there were more priorities. I was able to manage, I was able to cope. Once I hit law school with working full-time and going to school at night. It kind of all caught up to me, and I’m glad that that one person mentioned it to me, because I genuinely had a concern that maybe I am not meant to be here, maybe I can’t make it. But once I found out about my diagnosis and got the services I need, things changed for me. 

 

AMY: 

That’s amazing. That is amazing. Christine? 

 

CHRISTINE:  

So, I was diagnosed or identified in my late 20s. And I guess for me, you know, I, for a very long time had been wondering about a lot of things, but definitely a big one for autistic folks is a communication mismatch with just about everybody that you are talking to. And after a certain number of years of that, you start to go, ‘Is it me? Is it everyone else? What the heck is going on.’ And as I started to sort of dive into meeting autistic people, learning about things in the autistic community, and just sort of studies that are happening now that are more involving of autistic people, so that the results are better. I just started to learn all kinds of things that were really helpful for me in understanding what was going on, sort of processing what may have happened in the past.   

One of the things that I would suggest, you know, I saw a lot of law professors asking, ‘What can I do to be helpful to my students,’ and one of the things I would say is, you should look up what’s called the double empathy problem. And this is a problem that talks about how it’s about communication. And what it’s saying is, when we have an autistic person and an autistic person communicating, they do pretty well, there’s very low rates of miscommunication, there were pretty much understanding one another. When you put an allistic person, which is what I’ll use to describe anyone that’s not autistic, an allistic person speaking to another allistic person, again, they’re having a pretty easy time communicating. When you try to mix us up, you put me with a neurotypical person or, you know, that’s when the problem starts to come up. And I think what’s really important is noting that like, it’s actually not anyone’s fault, when there’s a miscommunication problem. Everybody is involved in the communication and miscommunications happen.   

So, there’s going to be times where the, the person you’re communicating with might have a different brain type than you. And what we know is it actually does affect the way you communicate. There are things that for me are not part of what I am deliberately giving off in my communication style, it might be things like not making eye contact with people, because I’m able to think better if I’m looking over here, instead of looking at your face. There’s lots of different things that in my communication style, don’t, don’t mean something malicious, or like I’m trying to be rude. But in other settings can be taken that way, even though that’s not at all what I’m meaning by it. So, you know, I think that’s definitely one of the things I wish people knew about more was just this idea that like, it’s sort of a team effort here. What has happened instead, of course, is that we’ve we’ve labeled one group the autistics as having a communication disorder, right? And really what’s happening is we’re having a mismatch in communication, everybody is missing each other where, you know, we’re ships passing in the night, so to speak. So, I think that’s one of the things just being aware of it. And, you know, trying to be cognizant of that, when you’re working with students understanding that like, there are those of us that are maybe processing it differently, maybe the way we’re saying it back to you is different. And it might not be wrong, it might not be what you’re used to. But increasingly, we’re joining the legal field, we’re here. So, you know, I think that it’s good to be aware of this sort of communication mismatch that tends to happen quite a bit.  

 

AMY: 

That, yeah, I really appreciate hearing that. I think when you and I were first talking about being on that panel, being on this panel, is that that you are, were, very direct, and it is, I guess, maybe a different way of communicating. So, again, you made me think of another question we were going to ask because we do have a lot of law school professors in watching this panel discussion, a lot of legal employers that are asking, ‘How can I work with somebody who is neurodivergent and make their lives easier?’ So again, in law school, as well as in the legal environment? Shawn, is there anything that you – we can start off with you. And again, I appreciate, I appreciate you, Christine, for sharing that information. Is there anything that you could, any advice that you could impart on these folks? 

 

SHAWN:  

Sure. So, there’s lots of things that, that people can do to help support people with differences, right. So, I think in terms of neurodiversity, if you identify as being part of the typical group, like, ‘Oh, I don’t view myself as being neurodiverse.’ Therefore, you’re, you’re in the majority in terms of numbers. And when you’re in the majority, it’s really easy just to sort of assume that this is the norm. Like, this is how it’s supposed to be, therefore I’m not aware, of how people outside of this experience operate. So, I think the first point, the place to start is just to recognize that, that perspective and to challenge it. And to say like, ‘Oh, this is, I’ve just assumed that this is how things are done, because this is how I do them. So, what else am I just assuming, and that’s not very helpful to somebody else?’   

And then, sort of once you start shifting that perspective, you’re gonna start noticing things, hopefully. So, you’re gonna start noticing like, ‘Oh, like, this is just how things would have been done.’ But that’s just based on, like, the greatest number of people who have been doing it. But maybe it’s not the best way to do that, across the board or for an individual. The second step, I think, which is really helpful, is to build relationships with the people around you. So, if you’re a law professor, getting to know your law students, if you’re an employer, getting to know your employees, instead of seeing neurodiversity, as ‘I need to identify people who are in that group, and then learn how to help them.’ It takes more work, but like more broadly, like get to know the people who you’re interacting with, right, have conversations about, you know, what they struggle with, what they excel at, you know, what supports do they need? Because it’s not just true of people who are within a particular category. It’s true of all of us. Right? So either the group that you identify with, or outside.  

 

AMY:   

Yeah.  

 

SHAWN:   

And so having explicit conversations about like, you know, barriers, struggles, what would be helpful. And then, from there, you can actually start to think about, like, how things could be changed to support those who you’re working with. Again, it’s a big thing to just change big systems that we’re in. But I think it starts with that idea that just because this is how it’s been doesn’t mean it has to be that way going forward. And we can think creatively. And one, you don’t have to have the answers, right, in order to support a law student or an employee, or a colleague, you don’t have to have the answers, you can have a conversation and start to come up with solutions and answers together. I think that’s, that’s where I would encourage people to start.  

 

AMY:   

So, it’s really one size does not fit all, and asking that individual –  

 

SHAWN:   

Absolutely.  

 

AMY:   

‘How can I be most helpful?’ Does anybody want to add to that in terms of their own experience, and maybe, again, advice that you would give to those legal employers, or law professors? 

 

SALOMON:  

There, there’s a vast difference, because in law school, you are paying to get the education, both the institution, and individual professors. So, the, the likelihood in getting accomodations, because there’s no profit made from you, you are the one who, who is the client, if you want to see it as an institution. And even before ADA, at the time, you know, in the mid 80s, when I went to school, it was the dean of the law school that already had you know, he had an autistic child. And there were many differences in the position, when you are, when you have a learning disability or you have a loved one, there’s much more empathy, much more understanding. But definitely getting time and a half for exams, being able to record your personal thought pattern to be recorded or recorded back.   

In law firms, particularly large law firms there’s a budget, minimum budget. It’s been the large firms I worked 1800 billable hours. And employers don’t want to take the risk and this is where prejudice and bias comes in they, they’re like, ‘What you may be very good at figuring out with stuff, but I need people who can do this at the rate of time that I can sell it.’ Your time is being sold. So, therefore layer it’s a, it’s a, it’s really a profit or loss analysis. And you know, that’s what you have to consider law schools are much more amenable to give you the accomodations that are your right. In the employment, particularly large, the measurement of your performance in billable hours. And that is a problem with, with for example, dyslexia because it takes you longer to read, no matter how many techniques and things there are, which are very, are making a difference, but you still need proofreading by a human being, not by a machine. 

 

AMY:   

I appreciate that. I just want to also there are a few people that are mentioning in the chat and the Q&A, we will get you those resources. Some people it sounds like can’t see them. So, I just want to let you, you know, that we will.   

Tierra, do you have anything you want to add in terms of somebody with ADHD, and what might have been helpful to you, again, in law school, or now working as a lawyer?  

 

TIERRA:   

Sure, I think that this applies in both law school and once you’re in the workforce, that ADHD or having any type of neurotypical disorder is a reason, it’s not an excuse. And I think that it would help employers to realize that, like we talked earlier, there are strengths to hiring someone that is neurodiverse. Oftentimes, where we’re the ones that are finding the minute, the minute details were the ones that are, that are, everything has to be in a particular way, in a particular order. And we’re there, we’re on time, and we’re doing it. So, there are benefits to having someone on your on your team that is neurodiverse.   

And I will speak for myself and, and probably applies to some other people. We’re not looking for different treatment just for the sake of getting different treatment. We’re looking for support to level the playing field so that we can perform at our best. And if we have the necessary supports, we can perform just like your top neurotypical person can perform. We just need more work in the background. And having that conversation, and especially if someone discloses, you know, oh, that’s nice, great, but what else are you going to do? Have more to that conversation, first of all, realize how difficult it may have been for someone to open up and to explain that they have autism or ADHD or they’re neurodiverse. Because the perception is that there’s an inability, and that is not always the case.   

So, I think it’s important for employers to have those conversations. If someone is coming to you respect that this is a very fragile subject for them, it’s probably something that they struggled with and felt that it was necessary to bring it forward and have that conversation. They’re not looking for an excuse. They’re giving you a reason why certain things are happening in their lives, or why things may have been late, or why they take a little longer to do things, and they’re looking for that support and that understanding to be able to get the job done because the job can be done. 

 

AMY:   

Excellent. I appreciate that. James, what about you? Any thoughts that might have been more helpful to you when you were in law school? Or… 

 

JAMES:   

Yeah, sure. Although I can actually kind of speak on it from the professor aspect. I’m an adjunct professor, I teach Introduction of Transactional Lawyering. And honestly, to piggyback off of something that Shawn said earlier, about rethinking what you’re doing and why you’re doing it, at least speaking from the law school standpoint. Because there are a lot of things that are in the law school tradition, that don’t necessarily fit well with people who are nuerodivergent, people who may need additional time to think, people who may not respond well to cold calling, even though they can be prepared to answer or if you give them, you know, 30 seconds to think they’ll have the answer. It’s not that they can’t figure it out. It’s not that they don’t know it, it’s not that they didn’t do the reading. It’s that they need a little bit more time for their brains to process, to be able to put the words in order, to put the ideas together, and then give you the response you’re looking for. 

And, you know, just sort of again, questioning why we do certain things, because that was a question on the first day of class that I had this spring, of asking, you know, if I’m cold calling, if there’s a list, and I say, ‘No, I ask questions, if anyone has an answer, then we answer it. And I’ll wait. And we’ll think through it.’ Because you know, a lot of that is along the lines of ‘Oh, well, if you’re standing in court and a judge asks you a question, you better have an answer immediately.’ And my response to people who say that is, what if I don’t want to do litigation? Which was me in law, before going to law school, I never wanted to set foot in a courtroom and haven’t. That’s not what I do. So, training me to be able to respond to a judge in a classroom setting is honestly silly and irrelevant. It has nothing to do with teaching me the law has nothing to do with helping me to understand concepts. It’s just putting me on the spot to do something that I may not even be able to do, at least the way you want it. When there’s actually no benefit for me in my life for that, because I’m never going to be in that situation anyway.

And honestly, was it – actually, yeah, this year, actually, as of next month, 20 years out of law school, never been in a situation like that, that, that, you know, law professors doing Socratic method do. Never, never, not once. So, you know, thinking about why we do the things we do. What is the benefit? Is there any benefit? And also, on the flip side, how may it be harming people who are sitting in front of you, who have, like Salomon said, paid a large amount of money to get an education, and instead, they’re getting just sort of beaten upon every time they show up to class, because they just need 30 seconds? 

 

Amy Levine   

So, you know, thinking about it, because you are teaching at law school, what have you done specifically, in your classes to attend to various needs? 

 

James T. Jones, Esq.   

Yeah, sure. Well, I’m also, I have, okay, I wear a lot of different hats. I’m also a middle and high school English teacher. And we’ve gotten lots and lots of training as more children are being diagnosed and coming through the system with diagnoses and IEPs. And, you know, one of the things that they really tried to drill into into our heads is this idea that what’s best practices for people with learning disabilities are very often best practices for everyone. So, the small things like, if there’s something on a slide reading it as well, or if there are instructions for an assignment to read them out loud to the class, to, you know, be comfortable with someone’s not making eye contact with you when you’re talking, to ask a question. 

And, you know, if you’re asking of a specific person, to give wait time, but also to tell students at the beginning of, you know, maybe the first day, the first meeting of the class, ‘Hey, these are some things that we’ll be doing. So, you know, if I ask a question, and we wait and linger on that person, it’s not because I’m trying to be mean, and just stare you down, it’s like, I’m gonna, you know, I’m respecting that some people need more time. And I’m going to give that to you. And if you’re one, not one of those people, then fine. If you are, then you have it.’ 

So, lots of small things that don’t really take much time, aren’t that big of a deal, but can be very helpful to people. Like someone with dyslexia, for example, where you put something up on the screen, and it may take them a while to decode it. But if you just say it, if you read it out loud to them, they’ll get it in that moment. And that takes some of the burden off of them some of the burden off of their brain in that moment, so that instead of having to put all their focus on trying to get these words together, so that they can now type or write them in their notes, now they got it, they can put it down, and they can think about the concept they can think about the idea that you’re discussing instead of, ‘How do I get these words in order?’ 

 

AMY:   

Those were great examples. Really great examples. Christine, love to hear from you on any… 

 

CHRISTINE:   

Yes, everybody said a lot of the things I was going to say. So, I definitely agree with a lot of my colleagues. I guess, to piggyback a little bit off of what James was saying, I am a litigator. And still the cold calling system is silly nonsense. There is a rare, it almost doesn’t exist where I go into court, and I don’t know, I’m going to be called on that day. Like, what are you talking about? I’m going to court because I know I’m the lawyer on the case. And usually that means I’m prepared for court that day, right? So, you know, if you’re gonna be someone that insists that we must be asked questions in front of everyone, which again, I think is fairly suspect for the many reasons James is saying, you know, I think it’s also worth saying, ‘Well, we’re going to have a schedule, then you’re going to know exactly what day you are called on.’ Because then whoever it is, can make sure they’re prepared ahead of time exactly the way you do as a lawyer. It’s, it’s a complete replication of what the job is. And I think that at any point, if you are doing something in law school that doesn’t replicate what will actually happen to us, it is a silly farce, and you should stop because like it’s being said, people are paying you, so I definitely agree with everything that was said about that.   

And I guess the thing I’ll say for employers is, you know, I think there’s like a silly sort of distrust of people when they try to either ask for accommodations or maybe after they’ve worked for you for a while ask for an update in their accommodations or new accommodations that employers sometimes have this feeling like they’ve been cheated or lied to, or like this person should have told you this before. I think it’s really worth noting that a lot of times people go through a job, you’re learning to get better at it as you go. And especially so if you’re neurodivergent. So, it may be that six months into the job, you have identified something that they’re saying to themselves, if I had this accommodation, I could do this job better.  

And I want to encourage employers to see that as a fantastic employee, right? Because that’s a person who is noticing where they can improve things. And they’re coming to you and telling you exactly what that thing is. So, you don’t even have to figure it out. You’re welcome, right. And so to have this sort of, like, distrust, like this person must be trying to get one up on the system by having something that others don’t get to have.   

Exactly what Tierra was saying, like, the reason that we need something additional is because we’ve been up against obstacles our entire lives, every single thing we do is an extra struggle than what other people are dealing with. And so sometimes we’re gonna say, ‘Here’s a way to alleviate that burden.’ And for someone to respond to and be like, ‘Well, isn’t that a little unfair to everybody else,’ is like, it blows your mind as a disabled person, because you’re like, ‘Everything is unfair to us, it’s really pretty simple to just respect the accommodation I’m asking you for.’ And to trust me when I’m telling you that, there’s no reason to make it up. I actually don’t gain a lot from disclosing and having to insist on a special treatment, you know, the way you view it, it’s a hard thing to do. And so I think, you know, I would just really like to encourage employers to be less suspicious, your disabled employees are having a hard enough time as it is, and they don’t need you also being like, ‘Is it real? Do you really need that?’ You know, it’s just an unnecessary burden to put on people. 

 

AMY:   

And Tierra and Christine, you’ve definitely segued us nicely into my next question for Shawn because we already mentioned self-disclosure, and being neurodivergent is not visible. So, Shawn, can you talk a little bit about when you think it’s a good idea to self-disclose, what that conversation could sound like? 

 

SHAWN:   

Sure. So, I just want to mention that there’s no right answer to this question. There’s a lot of debate about to disclose, whether to disclose, when to disclose, how to disclose. So, you’re just getting my one perspective on this. And that perspective is, it’s really important to think about the reason why you will disclose or not disclose. The reason is often more important than what your action is. So, if your reason is, you know, ‘I want to sort of own my experience, I don’t want this to be something where I feel like I’m hiding.’ Like, ‘No, this is part of who I am, how I operate. And I want to change the culture of this workplace, I want to be, you know, out and proud with my neurodiversity.’   

That’s a very different reason than disclosing for particular accommodation, or not disclosing because, you know, my reason for not disclosing is I don’t want to be seen as different or I don’t want, you know, to not get this job, because suddenly I’m, you know, a problem applicant, as opposed to oh, I’m a cookie cutter, I fit right into the square hole there. I’m a square peg and, and no worries.   

So, I would say think about the reasons to, or, the reasons to disclose. Think about how you would do that as well. So, similar to what I said earlier, I really think, I really encourage people to think about not just in terms of accommodations, or changes to the system, but also like how my neurodiversity gives me an advantage, right? Talk about it as like part of your whole story. So, if you’re going to disclose, talk about like, ‘This is how I operate,’ right? ‘This is how I work,’ right?   

And, and we all do this in different ways. We’re not necessarily overt about it, right. So, like, some of the panelists here are wearing glasses. Right? I have glasses too, but I’m not really good at wearing them consistently. Like, we don’t disclose that I’m, I need to wear glasses to read fine print or something particularly as I’m getting older. But I – won’t go there. So, right, but like, it’s just like, ‘Yeah, sure you wear glasses.’ Like it’s not an issue, right? So, if we were to talk about our strengths and weaknesses in the same way, just like, ‘Yep, this is how I operate best,’ right?  So like, if I’m, if I get distracted with loud noises, if I have if I have a way that I operate better, that part of that disclosure can be talking about how I operate best, right? If I need my employer to do something, to offer an accommodation or provide something, then the more I can clearly describe that as part of how I operate best, then it’s, to some of my panelists points earlier, it’s not just you’re making, you know, an accommodation for me. You’re doing something special for me. But it’s actually about how our relationship as employee-employer are going to benefit both of us. Because like, this is how I work best.   

And so, there’s lots of questions about do you disclose upfront? Do you wait until you know, you need something? So like, I want to see if I can sort of succeed on my own, figure it out on my own. And then if I run into a bear then I’m going to disclose and ask for something. There’s lots of different variations of that. So again, there’s no one answer that’s going to be applicable to everybody’s situation. But I think the more that you have a relationship with that person that you’re talking to, those disclosures come across easier. When you have a clearer sense of what it is that you’re disclosing and how that’s part of your story and then that is a way that someone can understand how you operate best, that’s a positive way to look at it as well. But I’ll leave it there for now. 

 

AMY:   

No, though, I think again, that was great. Yes, Salomon, I was gonna ask because I know that you worked at… 

 

SALOMON:   

I wanted to add something. Once you’re in, and I think in this way, affinity groups, like at the Boston Bar Association, me and a couple of other colleagues, the ones that had visible apparent disabilities, you wouldn’t ask, again, I’m going to the to the example to make it very clear, you wouldn’t ask an associate in a wheelchair, ‘Well, your job was to run from one side to the other side of the corridor, bringing this and you failed. So, this law firm cannot have you.’ Nobody would say that. But when you make spelling errors, which are inevitable when you have dyslexia, and say, ‘I need secretarial support,’ then there’s two ways that you can get answered. ‘I’m sorry, but everybody here does their own job. I don’t have a secretary,’ a partner would say, ‘Why should you?’   

So, you have to understand, what is the value proposition of the particular specialty that you’ve chosen? And then, how can you show value? I started to be valuable, but not in the typical ways, I was good with business development. I was culturally competent with both Latin America, there were a lot of high tech and biotech businesses from Israel that were fluent in English. The cultural affinity and language made it easier to get their business and get their trust. But those things that I was told that in performance evaluations, ‘This is great, but that’s not typical for associates, you don’t have to spend time, and there’s no way to measure what benefit you’re bringing by doing business development.’   

So, you can see how it is. It is, optimally, when, when we’ve given presentations to the BBA or now the HNBA on transitioning reasonable accommodations from law school onto the workplace. The best way to do it is don’t disclose until you have to. It’s definitely part of your identity, being authentic is better for your mental health. But don’t disclose until you have to. When you have to, ideally, you should be prepared in knowing, putting yourself in the side of management or the side of the profit for the law firm of, where do you fit that you can be productive, you know?   

And lastly, one thing I would say is in England, for example, they don’t call them reasonable accommodations, they call them reasonable adjustments. And that is not just a semantic issue. Because, whenever you drive a party, you adjust your rear view mirror, you adjust the seat. Everybody needs adjustments to be able, in this case, to drive comfortably. Well, it’s the same thing in business. And if you are neurodiverse, the good faith effort in an interactive situation is for the employer to ask you, ‘Well, what can we do so you are in a place where you make money for us and you you feel happy coming to work or at least you don’t feel that you have to hide, and in the end be miserable, be seen like dead weight?’ 

 

AMY:   

Thank you. I mean, this is great information. And I noticed that we’re getting close to the five o’clock mark and there are lots of questions. But I would like to ask James, Christine, and Tierra also. Did you decide to self disclose, not, what was your reasoning? What were some, what were some of the requests that you had to, to make it a better work environment for you? Tierra, do you want to start? 

 

TIERRA:   

I chose to self-disclose. I realized that I needed certain supports. And the only way to get those supports was to explain why I needed them. I’ve had, it, of course, it varies by job, it varies by company, varies by the manager, you know, some good responses, some not so good responses. I will say that, for me, at least, it was a sigh of relief. I felt like I was pretending to be someone that I’m not. I would sit in meetings sometimes and miss certain topics, because, I, my mind drifted. So, I’ve started asking colleagues for their notes, mentioning it to my boss at this is what I’m going to do, because you know, this happens sometimes. So, I think that is, for me, at least it was helpful to disclose it made me feel more part of the team rather than outside. That, ‘Here’s what’s going on with me, here are the things that I need to be successful. And I’m being vulnerable. And I’m sharing that with you. And I’m hoping that you all as a team can assist me in what I need. 

 

AMY:  

Excellent. I appreciate the the example that you provided. Christine, any, what about you? I know that you are working with one other person. So, tell us… 

 

CHRISTINE: 

I run my own law firm. So, I would say for folks that are neurodivergent, it’s actually a really great setup, I never have to ask anybody for an accommodation, I accommodate myself, if there’s something I need, I do it. There are lots of tough parts to running your own business. But the flexibility that comes with it, for me is irreplaceable. So, if there’s anyone that is like a law student or something, and you’re interested in that, feel free to reach out to me, and I’m happy to tell you how we did that. But it definitely it provides a lot of flexibility.   

I guess what I would say is, at least in the autistic community, we talk a lot about disclosure and non-disclosure. For a few reasons. There are some pretty serious reasons to be careful if you are autistic. Probably autistic people here already know this. But there are things like you could have your kids taken away, there are some countries that will not allow you to move to them. If you are diagnosed as autistic, as we are talking about here, you could get fired. And it might be that they’re not blaming it on the autism. But there’s other things that are you know, really the traits and so you are really actually getting blamed, you know, fired for that. So, I think there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of pitfalls. I think there’s also a lot of good reasons to do it. It’s such a case by case decision. And I definitely agree with other people about just really being thoughtful about why you’re doing it. Because it might not be the, it might not get you exactly what you want. So, you just want to think about what your sort of purpose is.   

But yeah, and I guess the other thing I would say is, I tend to have lots of autistic clients and I tend to disclose to those people. I don’t always disclose to my clients, but if I have an autistic client, I am happy to disclose to that person. And I often find it makes a big difference. There are a lot of people who think it’s a horrible thing. And especially, you know, I work in criminal defense, there’s a lot of autistic people who are being told, ‘You’re a horrible person,’ and all these really bad things and to sort of have someone who’s like, they’ve already viewed as helpful and kind and smart. And I’m like, ‘Oh, I’m autistic, too,’ it kind of can have a whole shift on someone in a way that that I think is really powerful. So, yeah, I guess those are my thoughts on disclosing, across the board. 

 

AMY:   

And then, James, you’re in a similar situation where you do have your own firm, but you are also working in a different environment. How about you?  

 

JAMES:   

Yeah, you know, it’s hard for me to speak on this, in the context that I’m sure a lot of people are going to be in working for a firm or something like that. Because, to be perfectly honest, it’s been, 2005 since the last time I was not in charge of everything that happens throughout the day. But to kind of speak to what Christine was saying, that’s also somewhat by design, in that I’m now the architect of everything that’s happening, and therefore I don’t have to fulfill certain requirements that other people may be asking of me. You know, when I’m in the classroom, it’s my class, I dictate what we’re doing that day, what the pace is going to be, what activities. When we’re in law school class, I write the syllabus, I run the class. I have my own firm, I don’t have to answer to anybody.   

So, you know, in terms of disclosing, I’m open with it, because, you know, I’ve kind of built a life where there isn’t a negative consequence of me telling someone like that, if I have a client who I disclose it to, and they feel weird or icky about that, ‘Okay, you don’t have to fire me as your lawyer, I have fired you as my client, you’re gone, because I’m in charge, it’s my business, I work with whoever I want to, you can’t tell me anything.’ So, kind of like what Christine was saying, you know, if that’s something that you’re worried about, that is one route to go is to be the person in charge, and then you don’t have to worry about what someone’s going to think or how someone may treat you, you know, if you feel you have the ability or the desire to do that, it is a route to take. And there are a lot of a lot of people in the autistic community end up becoming entrepreneurs for that reason, because you realize over time that it’s a lot easier, even as hard as it is to run a business, it’s still very often easier than dealing with the crap that you have to deal with, of having to explain yourself to other people, or try to get accommodations or whatever else. So, that’s my thought on that, at least for from my experience and perspective. 

 

AMY:   

So, I – yep, Shawn.  

 

SHAWN:   

Just really quickly, whenever you’re thinking about disclosing, it’s really important to not assume that the person you’re talking to understands what you’re talking about, right. So like, disclosing that you have ADHD, if you assume that that person knows what you’re talking about, they might be totally misinformed, and operating on a very out of date idea or like, based on someone that they know from childhood or whatever, right? So, it’s really helpful to break down what is, what is it that you’re disclosing, and not just rely on a label or a category, and assume that they understand. So, take that opportunity to really talk about who you are, and specifically what that means for you. And not just this is my, my category or my word that I’m using to describe it. 

 

AMY:  

Excellent. I’m glad that you added that in. And thank you all, by the way, for sharing your experiences and being so honest and vulnerable. I really do appreciate it. I will tell you, we have lots of questions. So, I know we have about 15 minutes left. So, I’m going to start with the first question, which I think is, I think very clear from my experience talking with Christine. The question is regarding terminology, and best practices based on the intros. ‘Are you all okay with X is an autistic lawyer as opposed to lawyer with autism. That is, a preference to lead with the person as opposed to the disability or is this overly sensitive in your view?’ So, I know, Christine is passionate about that, and I’d love for you to help answer that question.  

 

CHRISTINE:  

Sure, yeah, there has been a pretty long history of people wanting to call us person with autism. And it’s sort of based on these ideas that if you’re an autistic person, you should want to distance yourself from that autism, it’s something that, you know, it’s sort of like, ‘They’re still a person, but they’re a person with autism,’ right. And, you know, our community is really doing some active and deliberate work to push back on that narrative. And a lot of us now sort of, there’s informal polling that’s being done. And some early preliminary studies that are basically showing most of our community is now shifting towards being, preferring to be called autistic rather than person with autism. 

You know, I think it’s important to know that everybody is different. And so you might come across somebody that likes to be called person with autism, and whatever they want to be called, is what you should be calling them. But I also think it’s it’s important to know this sort of like history of that’s where that terminology comes from. It does not come from the autistic community, we are not the ones that decided it was gross to be called autistic. In fact, as soon as we were involved in that conversation, most of us are really happy to say, ‘I’m proud to be an autistic person. These are traits that define me very clearly. It’s not like I can drop it off at the door, like it’s a backpack and just leave it over there. It is 100% part of me, it’s who I am.’ And so increasingly, you know, fewer and fewer people like the term person with autism. I’m happy to be called autistic. It’s what I am. 

 

AMY:  

Thank you. Anybody else want to add to that? 

 

SALOMON: 

I think that it’s not good to be defined by those who discriminate against you. Both in the mindset, a lot of discrimination happens by the way your career progresses. Because once you disclose, for example, dyslexia takes me longer. There are questions in the chat about it, which I would welcome to anybody to contact me and I can tell them. So, yes, there is the ability, once you are in the workplace, and you would be very lucky if your abilities align with that. But it’s not by coincidence that most of us are in their own practice. But you know, your livelihood in many ways depends from the great education that you bring in your own understanding. So, I recommend that everybody, in terms of how they feel, I am perfectly fine with being called dyslexic. Because the mindset should change to one of appreciating all abilities.   

But during the pandemic, I went, I went back to school and like, you know, I got a master’s in DEI, and that’s where you see the importance of, in your identity, which is intersectional, be comfortable with who you are. But they’re gonna be areas that hurt. Dyslexia does hurt your career, and it hurts you emotionally. Now, one thing is, I really believe that you shouldn’t be defined by those who are indifferent, or want to be indifferent with your, with your difference, with your disability. I am proud of being from Mexico, I’m proud of being Hispanic in the US as an immigrant, I am proud of being Jewish, I shouldn’t be defined by those who hate Jews, or those disparage Mexicans. And, you know, we’ve had, and so that’s the same thing. It’s you, you own it, it’s you. But in the legal profession, in the same way in law school, the inflexibility of how to judge the performance of those with hidden disabilities, is why the Attorneys with Disabilities Committee exists at BBA, at the ADA. And that, it’s, it’s an issue where you need a lot of support, and you have to be able to align your abilities with a profit of in the workplace. 

 

AMY:   

Excellent. Thank you. I think this might be a question for Shawn. ‘I wonder if someone can address the complications, differences, unique benefits with somebody with autism, or who is autistic, and has ADHD.’ 

 

SHAWN:   

I think Salomon commented on this earlier, where just because you have one diagnosis, or fit in to one category doesn’t mean you can’t be in multiple categories at the same time. So, I think there’s a lot of overlap, like a lot of people with ADHD are also diagnosed with autism. So, that, they share, they share some similarities there. In terms of what is helpful, I think the more that you know, for yourself, like, ‘Oh, this is, this is how I operate,’ or ‘This is, you know, something that’s coming up in terms of a struggle, either, as I’m aware of other people and how they do it, or I’m in a system, and I want to be in that system. And there’s pushback, because, you know, there’s there’s some barrier there.’  

Then, the more information you have about that, then you can start to navigate helpful resources. Salomon mentioned, groups, you know, of neurodiverse attorneys. And I think that having community is super important, right. So, I run a support group for lawyers and law students with ADHD, and one of the things that comes up a lot in that group is just that feeling of ‘Oh, people who understand what I’m talking about. And I don’t have to, you know, explain everything, like, you get it. And I’m not alone.’ And I think the more that, that you’re able to have that with people who are like, your tribe, they understand what you’re going through, they’re going through it, too, is super important. And also you can benefit from, like, suggestions that people have tried, like, ‘Oh, this is helpful to me because of my experiences.’ And when, if you identify in a similar way, I guess that might be helpful for me as well. So… 

 

AMY: 

Thank you. And Salomon, maybe you could put in the chat, the different groups. I think that would be helpful. We have lots of other questions. So, that’s why I’m trying to figure out ways to make sure we address all of this. 

 

SALOMON:   

Because of my disability, it’s gonna take me longer to type it, so, you – 

 

AMY:   

Okay, okay. 

 

SALOMON: 

Feel free to give them my email and I’ll be here for a while. 

 

AMY:  

No, I appreciate you saying that. That was a great point. So, somebody says, ‘I work with court involved youth and young adults, some of them present as being neurodivergent but not have, but not have been evaluated or diagnosed. Any suggestions on how to approach a conversation with them about getting evaluated, which might be court-ordered and diagnosed, and how their neurodivergence might impact their case, interacting with the probation officer, for example?’ So, I think, again, it’s how do you how do you approach that conversation? 

 

SALOMON:  

You have to be diagnosed, you know, we’re all attorneys, there is no proof unless you have some documents. Think about that. The intuition is not going to get you anywhere. But I’m curious to see what my, my colleagues in the panel say. 

 

CHRISTINE:   

I guess I’ll chime in. I think it’s really hard in the criminal justice system, I struggle with this myself as an autistic person, because the reality is that if you are able to present some evidence to a judge about neurodivergence, or something else in the case, often that can help your client. And that sometimes means that you have an expert coming in who is an expert, and they’re gonna call him ‘person with autism,’ and even, right, and sort of do all these things that people that are actually autistic would say, you know, ‘We don’t, we don’t really like that kind of thing anymore. We’re moving away from that.’ But that’s the reality, in a lot of the court systems, that’s the education level we’re dealing with, with, with diagnosing neurodivergence.   

So, I guess what I would say it’s especially hard with kids, but I also do sometimes represent some kids in the criminal process. And I would say, you know, those are, especially some of the people that I disclose to. Some of those kids, it is really helpful to hear from me, like, ‘This is an adult that I know, she’s working as a lawyer. She’s been working with me this whole time, and I didn’t have any sort of negative thoughts or feelings about her. And now she’s telling me that she has this thing that I have, or something that’s similar to what I have.’   

I think there’s so much importance to trying to break the stigma. And that’s not something that’s easily done in one conversation. It’s one of the reasons like we have panels like this, right, is because we’re trying to educate people so that hopefully those kids eventually are living in a world where being diagnosed as something isn’t like this horrible thing that you recognize is othering you and is causing you all these problems, right? Like the the ideal, I think, for our community and like the disability justice way is pushing towards a better, a better version of that. So, I get, it’s really hard. But I really think like as best you can, if there’s, if there’s readings you can give them by autistic people, or by neurodivergent people, that can help. If there’s a peer group you can get them to, that can help. I think it’s just the main thing is like trying to dispel the shame around it. Because when you’re a kid, that’s that’s pretty much what you hear from society. 

 

AMY: 

We have a few more questions, we actually have a number of questions, and I’m noticing the time we just have a few more minutes. One of the questions was that, from an employer, who believes that maybe one of their employees does have, is neurodivergent, and they’re not quite sure if they should approach them, or, or not. 

 

SHAWN:  

So, it would depend on the reason to approach. So like, if there’s some some performance issue or some, something that that’s not going well, and they want to have a conversation about, like how to address that or bring something up. Generally, I would, again, start with the relationship. You know, ideally, you’d have a trusting relationship with your employee, that your employee knows that you actually care about them as a person, and not just as a, you know, producer of, of widgets, or whatever that they’re doing for you.   

So, starting there is a great place, and then having a conversation about what you’re observing. So, don’t diagnose. Don’t assume that you know what’s going on. But stick with like, this is what I’ve observed and have a conversation about it. So, if there are things like missing deadlines or something, right, if, if you think that that is related to an issue of neurodivergence, specifically talk about missing deadlines and, and ask them, you know, what, what the struggle is, what would be helpful, the more that you can have an open conversation about it, the better it would be. One, because that person might disclose to you. They might not know that they have anything to disclose, they might, they might not be thinking I have something to disclose that I’m just not doing it. They just might be thinking in terms of this is a struggle for me. And then having an open conversation about it might lead you to some some helpful outcomes to figure out what it would, what would be helpful for that person and for the organization at large. 

 

AMY:   

Sorry about that, I was muted. We are really right at time. And once again, I want to thank everybody for your time. There were, I know, a number of questions that have were not answered. I am including Salomon’s email, I know people were curious about some of the things that he mentioned. So, what we’ll do is we will try to get all of these resources out to you. You will get a recording directly sent to you. And also we do have a feedback form that’s going to come to you right after this. So, we’d love to hear from you.  

And, again, thank you so much. I’m gonna check with the panelists before we give out their emails. But there are people that are asking for personal emails, but we can talk about that later. So again, thank you so much. I really appreciate everybody’s time. And I think this is, was, really helpful. I learned a lot and hopefully others did as well. Thank you so much. 

 

SHAWN:   

Thanks everyone.  

 

JAMES: 

Thank you.